go Hil, go!

Comments

[this is good]
Also well said.
I still have negative feelings about Hil's motives, though. Crap, everyone's motives.
Yes, I am getting old and paranoid and cynical.

I am still not making up my mind who to vote for. Must...gather...more...info.
I was flipflopping until the debate of a few weeks ago. Obama just didn't have the confidence and wherewithal that Hillary does... Though I'll take either of them over a Republican't, his presidency, I fear, would be a weak one from lack of focus, and prone to inside bullying and compromise.
[this is good]
While I was adamant that I wasn't supporting Hillary for her vagina, I have to say that MY vagina felt really damn good when I pulled the lever.

I totally dug on Barack's keynote address a few years ago but that does not qualify him to be the preznit. Didn't the people "elect" W because he was more charismatic than Al Gore? Well Al Gore's Beard! Look who's the charismatic one now!

I honestly believe that Hillary would make a better president than Barack. I also believe that Edwards or Kucinich would have been better than Hillary. But what can you do? Besides, those rabid Obama supporters must be leftover browncoats. They're cool and I'll support them too, but they're just a little too enthusiastic. They're wacky enough they might even put off the evangelicals!
Yes! It is unbelievable that a woman is vying for the office of President, isn't it? Unreal.

Like Lauri said, I don't know who to vote for either. If the election was tomorrow, it would probably be Hillary. But every once in awhile I'm not sure she can handle the job effectively either. I'd be more impressed with her "35 years of experience" if some of that experience included being the head of some kind of state government ( like mayor, or governor, you know? ) Some of the people I talk to here at work, say she's starting to seem less credible lately --- she's starting to come slightly unraveled while Obama's seeming to appear more together.
I don't know much about politics --- all I want is a GREAT president in office who will get our country back to where it needs to be and MORE --- somebody who can clean up all the mistakes that have been made by frickin' Bush and his peaople and the people before him.

I can not find any reason to not vote for Hillary.
I have found reasons to not vote for all the other candidates.
I'm vain and I hate soundin like an old fart:

I voted Clinton this time and I will again, if given the chance.

Mr. Obama is not what I call "presidential" and while I'm nothing but a Hillbilly's daughter, I do come from a pack of Hillbillies who love following politics. Along with all my arty shit at uni, I took law and Poli/Sci courses. My brother's degree is PS. I'm saying I've been paying attention, is all, and I prefer Mrs. Clinton.

Like Val, my double-X chromosomes appreciated some approbation, too.


More good points, jaypo.
Obama may need to spend more time in Congress, to show us what he can really DO before he is made president.

And, I, too, say, whichever, we need to swing away from the Republicans for awhile. I was all for small government, and fiscal conservativeness and responsibility, but it doesn't seem like that is what they are about anymore, not for a long time.

Until they stop representing intolerance, and can find ways to get along with much of the rest of the world, I want someone else in charge!!!
How about a candidate that can win in November-- do you want that?

Because Hillary ain't it. EVERY poll shows her doing worse against McCain than Obama. She has literally ZERO support beyond the base of the Democratic Party.

Now, the "play-only-to-the-base" style of politics worked for Karl Rove and Bush, but it's just not going to cut it for Hillary. If the Dems want to win in November, they will need the support of the independents and new voters that Obama is attracting in droves. We will need to win those swing states like Missouri, Iowa, and Colorado-- that all went red for Bush last time-- if we want to take the presidency.

Let's look at some hard numbers. From a new Rasmussen Poll in Colorado, which, after going red in 2000 and 2004, is definitely in play in 2008:

Barack Obama (D) currently holds a seven-point advantage over John McCain (R), 46% to 39%. However, if the Democrats nominate Hillary Clinton, McCain will begin the race with a fourteen point advantage, 49% to 35%.

Sixty percent (60%) of Colorado voters currently have a favorable opinion of Obama while just 36% hold an unfavorable view.

McCain earns favorable reviews from 55% and less flattering assessments from 42%

Clinton is viewed favorably by 44% and unfavorably by 54%.

Now, Obama's negatives will doubtless rise. But there really is no contest with Clinton. McCain's emergence as the GOP candidate makes Clinton a disastrous pick for the Democrats.

The Republicans are practically BEGGING us to nominate Hillary-- she is the one person that can unite the slowly disintegrating Republican Party. Rush Limbaugh is actually thinking about holding a fundraiser FOR Hillary-- not because he likes her, but because he wants her to be the nominee against McCain:

We've got make sure she's the nominee if the Republican Party is to be unified. What more loyal thing could I do than to run a fundraiser for Mrs. Clinton?
[...]
If our electoral victory in November requires her being in the race, we gotta stop him; because there's no fear and loathing on Obama. You can't run against Obama fearing him or loathing him or dissing him. It isn't going to work. He doesn't have the personality that makes any of that fit. So we need to keep her in it so we can win it.
All those disaffected conservatives-- that dont like McCain, and might otherwise sit this one out-- will come flocking to the polls to deny Hillary the Presidency.

I dont understand how democrats dont see this. It's just a fact. Think about the big picture.
Aaaah, another interesting way to look at it! *tilts head around and sideways*
Wow.
This is the thing that was scaring me about Hilary, Lenny.

However, I have heard how much Rush Limbaugh hates McCain, too. Which makes me feel better about McCain. :P

It still worries me that America has become too closeminded to elect either a woman OR a non-white president. I sure hope I'm wrong. But that little worry keeps nagging at me.
LMAO @ Val's "While I was adamant that I wasn't supporting Hillary for her vagina, I have to say that MY vagina felt really damn good when I pulled the lever."

I'm just going to keep saying it. UNITY TICKET is the only winner*. Ideally a Clinton/Obama ticket, because in 2016 Obama will have the experience he lacks now to run for Prez. (Which means Bill will have to lay low and let Obama shine in the VP slot for 8 years.)

*Oh, and people in the Hillary or Obama camps who say they won't vote for the other in the general election deserve to have their teeth broken out with a tire iron. I have a tire iron.
I'm not a democrat; I vote my conscience even though I've studied a little politcs. The more I learned, the more I realized they're all the same. After playing a game of trying to out-smart whomever, I've settled with my conscience because that's a lot more important to me.

UNITY TICKET is the only winner

I think you're right on this one, problem is, we have to stop bickering first. Come on people now, smile on your brother, everybody get together try to love one another right now.
I am not a sheep so I do not follow the pack, and no amount of herd dogging is going to pressure me into it either.
It would be awfully tedious for Redzilla to make the rounds at all the polling places in Nov. She'd have to borrow Rudolph or something! :D
oh gawd, I'd love an Unity ticket. Clinton-Obama indeed. believe me, if I could force that to happen I would. and of course I will vote for the Democratic party's nominee. there's no way I'd sit this one out.
lenny, interesting stats. again, Colorado being a red-state the last two elections, is not representative of the country at large. and I'm not sure what high negatives actaully mean. considering we are now having record-breaking numbers of voters during the primaries and still barely reaching 50% of the eligible population, I'd suspect that many potential voters are planning to stay home.
val, mad-tante, in the end is what you say: vote your conscience as (luckily) we live in a country where we dont' have to answer to noone else but ourselves.
I'll bring my spoon to scoop their eyes out with.

Love and peace, or else!!!


The country is not too close-minded to elect a woman; a broad swath of the country is too close-minded (and conditioned, through 16 years of right-wing propaganda) to elect Hillary Clinton. It's just reality. It's not right, it's not fair, but that's the way it is.

A unity ticket faces much the same problem that Hillary alone faces-- people will be galvanized to turn out to defeat her.

Further, the base of the democratic party-- the voters that are going for Hillary-- will definitely vote for Barack Obama. There's no way that those democrats in the always blues states of NY, CA. MA, NJ, etc will go for a Republican. However, as i mentioned before, the independents, when given a choice between Hillary and McCain, break for McCain. When the match up is Obama vs. McCain, they go for Obama. And that means that a whole bunch of states that were not in play 4 or 8 years ago will this time be competitive. We need to expand the playing field beyond the west and the northeast, and that is where Obama is winning. It's simple math: If the democrats want to end Republican control of the Executive Branch, Obama is our best chance. He has the potential of winning in a landslide.

Hillary and her campaign say that Obama is "untested" because he's never faced a serious campaign or challenger-- i suppose that beating Rick Lazio and that guy in 2006 that no one remembers because he was a nobody is Hillary's definition of a serious challenger? If Obama can organize and manage a national campaign, and draw more votes, more states, more delegates, and more money than the establishment Clinton machine-- who the republicans have never beaten, i'm pretty sure he can hold his own against any Republican.

Not trying to "herd dog" you or anyone else pyrit. I was just trying to appeal to your and others' reason with some real numbers and factual analysis here.

Facts are facts. I dont think Hillary deserves the hatred of half of America, but she has it, and i think that calculation should enter into peoples' minds as they assess how best to take the White House back from the Republicans.


A friend just sent me this today, from MoveOn.org.
I don't understand why people hate her...?
jaypo: neither do the majority of the people that hate her.
Oddly enough, I hear more progressives talking about the hatred of Hillary, all the while claiming they don't feel that way, but are more than happy to pass the along the sentiment. Then you turn around and you see what kind of numbers she's still pulling in despite the fact that everyone seems to hate her. Weird, eh?
It's not weird at all. Where are those numbers coming from? Democratic primary voters. And again-- when you peel back those numbers, you find that support coming specifically from the democratic base voters. After 8 long years of Bush, will those voters go for McCain, should Obama get the Dem nomination? Hardly. But (also) again-- elections are not (no matter what Karl Rove says) won with only the base. We need independents and new voters-- like the tens of thousands of young voters that Obama has drawn into the process-- to be on our side in November.

If the base is all you have, we. will. not. win. Do you disagree?

Also-- the progressives that talk about the hatred of Hillary do so not because they are "happy to pass along the sentiment"; they, like myself, do it to urge fellow democrats to think about what is most important: winning in November.
I'm an independent and I prefer Clinton over Obama...I can't be the only one. I think people like me or quieter about it because somebody jumps all over us when we say we prefer Clinton. My own father (a Republican) says he'll vote for Obama because he reminds him or Ronald Reagan. My dad's a Republican, not a Neo-Con. Obama appeals to a lot of GOP people I work with, too, and if you can trust their word it's because they detest McCain (whom I've voted for in the past).
Youre right-- youre not the only one. But youre in the vast minority, unfortunately, and politics is a game of numbers, plain and simple.
Statistics... A year ago Giuliani was a big statistic.
(And, my new-mother friend's fertility doctor said she had no chance.)
If one keeps saying, "Half the country hates Hillary", as if repeating it will make it true, sounds like biased, inappropriate data dredging.
Is the glass half full or half empty?
sorry, but talking about the repeated and consistent results of many Rasmussen, Zogby, and Gallup polls is not biased. When poll after poll shows Hillary with negative hovering between 45 and 50 percent, what other conclusion can you come to? When poll after poll shows Obama doing better against McCain than Hillary does, what other conclusion should one come to?

and by the way-- a year ago, when Giuliani numbers were up, Hillary's negative were just as high as they are now.

Do you really doubt the divisiveness of Hillary Clinton? Do you think its some sort of media creation?

I know many many people that will vote for Obama over McCain, but will vote for McCain over Obama. People in my family.

Will you vote for McCain, if Obama gets the nomination instead of Hillary? I doubt it.
i mean to say:

I know many many people that will vote for Obama over McCain, but will vote for McCain over Clinton.

Hezbollah, Israel, Iran - it's such a twisting, tangled mess. I trust Hillary to attempt to make sense of this, more than anybody else. It's why I voted for her (I live in California).

If it comes to an Obama v. McCain election I will vote for Obama, but I won't be happy.

Incidentally, in a recent speech, Barack talked about 'the young' - there was an almost indecipherable pause - and 'the young at heart'. It made me feel like a granny with flowers in her hair.

I would love to have a woman in the White House. But I want her to be in the White House because she's the best person for the job. Not just because she's a woman. That's why this campaign bothers me. There are going to be a lot of people voting for (or against) the shape of the candidates' chromosomes or the color of their skin. And NOT for the quality of their character or their positions on the issues.

However, I also believe that, whoever is elected, be it Obama or McCain or Hillary, the country is not going to fall apart. Someone in another thread pointed out that, in the spectrum of world politics, Republican and Democrat are so close to being the same that you can't even tell them apart.

People would do well to remember that and not resort to divisive, partisan, fear-mongering.

Even John McCain himself would rather run against Hillary than Barack.
Whatever the polls say, just go look at the numbers.
More people have already voted for Hillary in the primaries than have voted for McCain.
And almost more than have voted for Republicans in total.
Polls, quite honestly, are garbage.
(Remember the one showing Obama taking California by double digits?)
But YGRS, Obama doesn't have that kind of experience either.
Nor McCain, for that matter.

More people have already voted for Hillary in the primaries than have voted for McCain.

But look at the States. This is about electoral votes, and winning more states than Kerry did in 04 and Gore did on 00.

And that Zogby poll in CA was an outlier-- the SurveyUSA poll on Feb 1 nailed the outcome to the number.

In the case of presidential match-up polls, when there are numerous polls over many weeks (or in the case of Hillary's negative ratings, months) showing similar results, that's a trend. That cannot be dismissed as "garbage".

Clinton and her campaign knows this, and as the New York Times reports, is prepared to do whatever it takes to win-- no matter what:

With every delegate precious, Mrs. Clinton’s advisers also made it clear that they were prepared to take a number of potentially incendiary steps to build up Mrs. Clinton’s count. Top among these, her aides said, is pressing for Democrats to seat the disputed delegations from Florida and Michigan, who held their primaries in January in defiance of Democratic Party rules.
Do you have any idea what will happen to the Democratic Party if she does this?
That's what I mean. I know that the candidates have all this "experience" they talk about, but how much of it is experience actually RUNNING a city or state and being fully in charge of it, similar to running a whole country? Being a Senator or Congressman or lawyer is "experience" but it's not quite the same thing. I wish there was one candidate that was so stinkin' good and obviously RIGHT for the job that they stuck out like a sore thumb...but there isn't. It seems like instead of getting GREAT choices, all we ever get any more is the lesser evil. I know that ANYBODY is better than Bush, but I want more than just that, you know?

Great thread here.
I enjoy a bit of political divination and subjective validation as much as the next guy, but I'm still voting for Hillary.
By the way, data dredging, is gathering facts, but not gathering all the facts, or more critically, leaving out important facts.
Yes, YGRS, Bush really lowered the standard. The US really does need a great president, quick.
Fair enough, however i hope your support for her will not prevent you from voting for Barack Obama after he gets the nomination. :)
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DKN
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